NextGen Pawns, how to improve the Classic Chess Pawn

Which NextGen Pawns You like most: you can chose up to 3 NextGen Pawns.

Poll runs till Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:14 pm

1) Berolina / Berolina Chess
1
11%
2) Athens / Athens Chess
0
No votes
3) Sergeant / Vienna Chess
1
11%
4) Colonel / Massilia Chess
1
11%
5) General / Lutetia Chess
1
11%
6) Commander / Sparta Chess
1
11%
7) Lieutenant / Moscovia Chess
2
22%
8) Captain / Geneva Chess
0
No votes
9) Corporal / Petrópolis Chess
1
11%
10) Prussian / Prussian Chess
1
11%
 
Total votes: 9

musketeerchess
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NextGen Pawns, how to improve the Classic Chess Pawn

Post by musketeerchess » Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:14 pm

It's difficult to make changes to the "soul of chess", the Pawn.
In fact, the Pawn was the only piece with the Knight that haven't quite changed through centuries. They are essential to the game of Chess: having central pawns to control the center, pawn chains, passed pawns, doubled pawns etc are key elements to master the game.

Pawns are also the weakest piece on the board. It gains power at the endings and when crossing half teh board, but they can be attacked easily and they need to be sustained by other pieces or pawns (Pawn Chains). Sometimes even when you have the material advantage being a Pawn up you cannot win the game.

In the Following, we try to add some new elements, rules etc to the Classic Pawn to make them gain mobility etc.

Berolina Pawn.png
Berolina Pawn.png (114.53 KiB) Viewed 110 times
Can move one square diagonally and capture one square forward.
Athens Pawn.png
Athens Pawn.png (234.31 KiB) Viewed 110 times
Moves like a normal pawn but can relocate itself by Moving one square backward in any direction. Backward moves are non capturing.


Part of the NextGen Pawns, there are: Corporal < Sergeant < Lieutenant < Captain < Commander < Colonel < General
Corporal or Defender to Play Petropolis Chess.png
Corporal or Defender to Play Petropolis Chess.png (186.4 KiB) Viewed 110 times
Sergeant or Protector to play vienna chess.png
Sergeant or Protector to play vienna chess.png (166.11 KiB) Viewed 110 times
Lieutenant or Guardian to play Moscovia Chess.png
Lieutenant or Guardian to play Moscovia Chess.png (208.07 KiB) Viewed 110 times
Captain or Conqueror to play Geneva Chess.png
Captain or Conqueror to play Geneva Chess.png (225.89 KiB) Viewed 110 times
Commander or Gladiator to play Sparta Chess.png
Commander or Gladiator to play Sparta Chess.png (235.75 KiB) Viewed 110 times
Colonel or Raven to play Massilia chess.png
Colonel or Raven to play Massilia chess.png (254.66 KiB) Viewed 110 times
General or Musketeer to play Lutetia Chess.png
General or Musketeer to play Lutetia Chess.png (235.22 KiB) Viewed 110 times
The Prussia Pawn: moves like a Pawn but also can move one square Backwards diagonally. A non capturing backward move.
Prussia Pawn.png
Prussia Pawn.png (212.15 KiB) Viewed 110 times

musketeerchess
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Re: NextGen Pawns, how to improve the Classic Chess Pawn

Post by musketeerchess » Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:15 pm

musketeerchess wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:14 pm
It's difficult to make changes to the "soul of chess", the Pawn.
In fact, the Pawn was the only piece with the Knight that haven't quite changed through centuries. They are essential to the game of Chess: having central pawns to control the center, pawn chains, passed pawns, doubled pawns etc are key elements to master the game.

Pawns are also the weakest piece on the board. It gains power at the endings and when crossing half teh board, but they can be attacked easily and they need to be sustained by other pieces or pawns (Pawn Chains). Sometimes even when you have the material advantage being a Pawn up you cannot win the game.

In the Following, we try to add some new elements, rules etc to the Classic Pawn to make them gain mobility etc.


musketeerchess
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:28 pm
Location: Paris
Contact:

Re: NextGen Pawns, how to improve the Classic Chess Pawn

Post by musketeerchess » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:53 am

After thinking with Raphael and playing some games together, we came with some new ideas also:

We give here Berolina-Plus Pawn (not our invention)
Barasi Pawn
Barasi Chess featuring the Barasi Pawn.png
Barasi Chess featuring the Barasi Pawn.png (197.38 KiB) Viewed 85 times
Clifford Merry Pawn (Taxi Chess)
Merry Pawn to play O.K Chess or Zip Chess.png
Merry Pawn to play O.K Chess or Zip Chess.png (199.81 KiB) Viewed 85 times
Fish Pawn
David Moeser Pawn or Fish to play Fish Chess.png
David Moeser Pawn or Fish to play Fish Chess.png (182.67 KiB) Viewed 85 times
Shogi Pawn
Shogi Pawn to play Tokin Chess.png
Shogi Pawn to play Tokin Chess.png (102.21 KiB) Viewed 85 times
Xiangqi Pawn
Xiangqi Pawn to play Soldier Chess.png
Xiangqi Pawn to play Soldier Chess.png (112.85 KiB) Viewed 85 times

And some of our creations:

Berolina-Sideways Pawn
Berolina-Sideways Pawn.png
Berolina-Sideways Pawn.png (158.99 KiB) Viewed 85 times
Major Pawn
Major Pawn Saxonia Chess.png
Major Pawn Saxonia Chess.png (210.97 KiB) Viewed 85 times
Adjudant Pawn
Batavia Chess Adjudant Pawn.png
Batavia Chess Adjudant Pawn.png (141.42 KiB) Viewed 85 times
Aspirant Pawn
Alsatian Chess Aspirant Pawn.png
Alsatian Chess Aspirant Pawn.png (238.61 KiB) Viewed 85 times

H.G.Muller
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:24 pm

Re: NextGen Pawns, how to improve the Classic Chess Pawn

Post by H.G.Muller » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:25 am

It might be a good idea to spend some words on the en-passant capture capabilities of all these 'Pawns'. Does any initial double push create e.p. rights on the square it passes over? And is any capture-empowered move of an opponent Pawn then able to perform an e.p. capture by ending on this square?

And how about the Pawns that can make initial Knight moves? Can these Knight moves be blocked (like for the Xiangqi Horse), and if so, on which square(s)? And do they create e.p. rights on that square when they pass through it while it is not blocked? And if the move is a direct (unblockable) leap like that of the FIDE Knight are there still e.p. rights created somewhere. (And what if that square was occupied? Is double capture then possible?)

In the WinBoard GUI I now have made the creation of e.p. rights independent from the move type; any multi-leg move (of pieces of any type) that specifies a path of King steps to its final destination can now designate a square (or a pair of vertically adjacent squares) on this path as the e.p. square for the next move. And any piece type can then have some (or all) of its moves designated as allowed only when visiting the e.p. square, and performing e.p. capture in that case.

Also interesting to note is that in the case of Berolina (or similar) Pawns, the e.p. square alone is not unambiguously indicating which e.p. capture can be made. When a Pawn that can move forward to the e.p. square has enemy Pawns on both sides, either of the latter could have been the Pawn that passed through the e.p. square, and you would not know which Pawn to remove. Specifying only the Pawn that moved instead is no solution, as in that case you don't know which of two enemy Pawns beside it can e.p.-capture it. So you really have to specify two squares.

musketeerchess
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Re: NextGen Pawns, how to improve the Classic Chess Pawn

Post by musketeerchess » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:18 pm

Hi HG
A pleasure to have you here.

En-passant is possible even when a NextGen Pawn makes a special 2 square initial move.

For example, even with a Knight like move, the colonel from b2 moving to a4 (possible only if b3 square free) if there is a Black colonel on b4 it can make an en-passant towards a3 !!

The knight move is not blockable only for the Musketeer as it is a non capturing knight like move. For colonel and commander it can be blocked if the nearby square in front of it is occupied.

In the current programming of the NextGen Pawns, these special en-passant moves aren't yet correctly implemented. To be corrected.

Concerning the Winboard GUI, is it possible to have an engine play one side with a classic chess pawn and the other side with different rules for the Pawns (or other pieces)?


I don't really realise in which positions two pawns can be involved in en-passant. Can you explain?
In such a case, the en-passant should be made when the concerned pawn is chosen to make the en-passant move.

H.G.Muller
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:24 pm

Re: NextGen Pawns, how to improve the Classic Chess Pawn

Post by H.G.Muller » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:12 pm

musketeerchess wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:18 pm
Hi HG
A pleasure to have you here.

En-passant is possible even when a NextGen Pawn makes a special 2 square initial move.

For example, even with a Knight like move, the colonel from b2 moving to a4 (possible only if b3 square free) if there is a Black colonel on b4 it can make an en-passant towards a3 !!

The knight move is not blockable only for the Musketeer as it is a non capturing knight like move. For colonel and commander it can be blocked if the nearby square in front of it is occupied.

In the current programming of the NextGen Pawns, these special en-passant moves aren't yet correctly implemented. To be corrected.

Concerning the Winboard GUI, is it possible to have an engine play one side with a classic chess pawn and the other side with different rules for the Pawns (or other pieces)?


I don't really realise in which positions two pawns can be involved in en-passant. Can you explain?
In such a case, the en-passant should be made when the concerned pawn is chosen to make the en-passant move.

H.G.Muller
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:24 pm

Re: NextGen Pawns, how to improve the Classic Chess Pawn

Post by H.G.Muller » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:12 pm

musketeerchess wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:18 pm
For example, even with a Knight like move, the colonel from b2 moving to a4 (possible only if b3 square free) if there is a Black colonel on b4 it can make an en-passant towards a3 !!
I brought it up because it is something that is not apparent from the diagrams you post. And what you say here is very surprising and counter-intuitive to me. I would have expected that Pawns can only be captured in passing on squares that they actually pass. So if b2 moves to a4 over b3, (and thus can be blocked only there), I would have thought that one needed a Pawn on c4 to play c4xb3 e.p. to make the Pawn on a4 disappear. Not b4xa3. What if there was another white pawn or piece a3? That would not have blocked b2-a4, so if that were played, would black then still be able to play b4xa3 after it, and capture two pieces at once (one e.p., the other normally)?

And if a Colonel Pawn was played from c2 to b4, could it also be taken e.p. by a black Colonel Pawn on a2? (As 7th-rank colonels seem to be able to capture backwards?)
The knight move is not blockable only for the Musketeer as it is a non capturing knight like move. For colonel and commander it can be blocked if the nearby square in front of it is occupied.
So you mean for the General alias Musketeer? So can a General Pawn be captured e.p. after such a move?
Concerning the Winboard GUI, is it possible to have an engine play one side with a classic chess pawn and the other side with different rules for the Pawns (or other pieces)?
Sure. Spartan Chess is an already supported standard variant that has totally asymmetric armies (including different Pawns). As for engine-defined variants, the engine can define the moves of white and black pieces separately and independently.

I don't really realise in which positions two pawns can be involved in en-passant. Can you explain?
In such a case, the en-passant should be made when the concerned pawn is chosen to make the en-passant move.
Well, in normal Chess it would already be possible to have two Pawns capable of e.p.: when e2-e4 is played while black Pawns are on d4 and f4, eithe of these black Pawns can play an e.p. capture. But what I meant is that when in Berolina Chess you have a position with a black Pawn on e4, and white Pawns on d4 and f4, while the e.p. square is given as e3, you don't have enough information to decide whether the previous move was d2-f4 or f2-d4. And you need that info to know which Pawn to remove after e4xe3 e.p.

Similarly, if you would only know which the previously doubly pushed Pawn was, say a white Pawn on e4, you would not know whether the black Pawn on d4 or f4 could e.p. capture (to d3 or f3, respectively), because you would not know whether the e4 Pawn came from c2 or g2. A single square is not enough to fix the game state.

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Re: NextGen Pawns, how to improve the Classic Chess Pawn

Post by musketeerchess » Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:17 pm

HG, always a pleasure to discuss and share thoughts with you.
for me, en-passant is only possible after 2 squares advance move and the en-passant pawn is one that is located in a range of 2 squares from the moving pawn.

so if a pawn on b2 can go to a4 (move is b2-b3-b4-a4 or b2-b3-a4) a pawn on a3 cannot make an en-passant move !!
The en-passant for the NextGen Pawns was adapted for their particular abilities. So when they make a special 2 square advance move the pawn just in front an located 2 squares farther is the pawn that can make the en passant move.

It's also possible to have a regular en-passant move like for regular chess pawns.
H.G.Muller wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:12 pm
musketeerchess wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:18 pm
For example, even with a Knight like move, the colonel from b2 moving to a4 (possible only if b3 square free) if there is a Black colonel on b4 it can make an en-passant towards a3 !!
I brought it up because it is something that is not apparent from the diagrams you post. And what you say here is very surprising and counter-intuitive to me. I would have expected that Pawns can only be captured in passing on squares that they actually pass. So if b2 moves to a4 over b3, (and thus can be blocked only there), I would have thought that one needed a Pawn on c4 to play c4xb3 e.p. to make the Pawn on a4 disappear. Not b4xa3. What if there was another white pawn or piece a3? That would not have blocked b2-a4, so if that were played, would black then still be able to play b4xa3 after it, and capture two pieces at once (one e.p., the other normally)?

And if a Colonel Pawn was played from c2 to b4, could it also be taken e.p. by a black Colonel Pawn on a2? (As 7th-rank colonels seem to be able to capture backwards?)
The knight move is not blockable only for the Musketeer as it is a non capturing knight like move. For colonel and commander it can be blocked if the nearby square in front of it is occupied.
So you mean for the General alias Musketeer? So can a General Pawn be captured e.p. after such a move?
Concerning the Winboard GUI, is it possible to have an engine play one side with a classic chess pawn and the other side with different rules for the Pawns (or other pieces)?
Sure. Spartan Chess is an already supported standard variant that has totally asymmetric armies (including different Pawns). As for engine-defined variants, the engine can define the moves of white and black pieces separately and independently.

I don't really realise in which positions two pawns can be involved in en-passant. Can you explain?
In such a case, the en-passant should be made when the concerned pawn is chosen to make the en-passant move.
Well, in normal Chess it would already be possible to have two Pawns capable of e.p.: when e2-e4 is played while black Pawns are on d4 and f4, eithe of these black Pawns can play an e.p. capture. But what I meant is that when in Berolina Chess you have a position with a black Pawn on e4, and white Pawns on d4 and f4, while the e.p. square is given as e3, you don't have enough information to decide whether the previous move was d2-f4 or f2-d4. And you need that info to know which Pawn to remove after e4xe3 e.p.

Similarly, if you would only know which the previously doubly pushed Pawn was, say a white Pawn on e4, you would not know whether the black Pawn on d4 or f4 could e.p. capture (to d3 or f3, respectively), because you would not know whether the e4 Pawn came from c2 or g2. A single square is not enough to fix the game state.
And yes, for two pawns to be able to make an en-passant move, the pawn performing the en-passant should be picked which makes the distinction between both

H.G.Muller
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Re: NextGen Pawns, how to improve the Classic Chess Pawn

Post by H.G.Muller » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:14 pm

musketeerchess wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:17 pm
so if a pawn on b2 can go to a4 (move is b2-b3-b4-a4 or b2-b3-a4) a pawn on a3 cannot make an en-passant move !!
The en-passant for the NextGen Pawns was adapted for their particular abilities. So when they make a special 2 square advance move the pawn just in front an located 2 squares farther is the pawn that can make the en passant move.
So if the NextGen Pawn moves two squares straight ahead, say b2-b4, it cannot be captured by a black NextGen Pawn on c4, because c4 is not "just in front an located 2 squares farther" as b2?

You still did not answer the question on the case where a3 is occupied. If there is a white Knight on a3, and white plays NextGen Pawn b2-a4, and black replies with NextGen Pawn b4xa3... Does this only capture the Knight, or does it in addition capture the Pawn on a4 (en passant)?

musketeerchess
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Re: NextGen Pawns, how to improve the Classic Chess Pawn

Post by musketeerchess » Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:16 pm

H.G.Muller wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:14 pm
musketeerchess wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:17 pm
so if a pawn on b2 can go to a4 (move is b2-b3-b4-a4 or b2-b3-a4) a pawn on a3 cannot make an en-passant move !!
The en-passant for the NextGen Pawns was adapted for their particular abilities. So when they make a special 2 square advance move the pawn just in front an located 2 squares farther is the pawn that can make the en passant move.
So if the NextGen Pawn moves two squares straight ahead, say b2-b4, it cannot be captured by a black NextGen Pawn on c4, because c4 is not "just in front an located 2 squares farther" as b2?

You still did not answer the question on the case where a3 is occupied. If there is a white Knight on a3, and white plays NextGen Pawn b2-a4, and black replies with NextGen Pawn b4xa3... Does this only capture the Knight, or does it in addition capture the Pawn on a4 (en passant)?
Hi

NGP Pawns can capture en passant in the classic way. They can also capture the new way i described !

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